合之道·访谈 | 里昂对话联合国教科文组织总干事
伊琳娜·博科娃 Irina Bokova
Former Director-General of UNESCO
Irina Bokova has been two terms the Director-General of UNESCO from 2009 to 2017. She is the first woman and the first Eastern European to lead the Organization.
高大伟：伊琳娜，很高兴能有机会与你进行对话。此时你在巴黎，身后有许多书。我们很高兴能在上海。你非常了解上海，肯定看出来了我们背后是陆家嘴。伊琳娜，2020年，我们看到了越来越多的不确定因素。当我们不得不面对疫情时，我认为“韧性”的概念非常恰当地概括了我们所必须具备的品质。但现在我们已经进入了“后新冠肺炎疫情时代”，从某种程度上看，我们还只能说“后疫情时代” 。而现在我们要做的是以更系统性的方式探索“合作”的概念 。因此我的第一个问题是 ，伊琳娜 ，你如何理解合作，为什么合作对当今世界而言如此重要。
DG: Irina, it's really a great pleasure to have the chance to have this conversation with you. You are in Paris with a lot of books, and we have the great pleasure to be in Shanghai. In our back, of course, you know Shanghai very well, this is Lujiazui. Of course, Irina, 2020 is a year in which we have seen the increase of uncertainties. And when we had to face the pandemic, I think the notion of resilience was very much apt to describe what we had to do. But now we have entered another phase in this post-pandemic world or post-COVID-19 world, to a certain extent, we can use “post” only. And we think that the concept of collaboration has to be explored in a more systematic way. Therefore, my first question, Irina, would be about your understanding of collaboration, and why do you think collaboration is so important for our world today?
伊琳娜·博科娃： 大伟，2020年本应是非常重要的一年。今年是联合国成立75周年 ，是联合国具有里程碑意义的。《2030年可持续发展议程》通过5周年， 是《巴黎气候变化协定》通过5周年， 而且今年还是另一项具有里程碑意义的会议， 即在北京举行的谋求和平与发展的世界妇女大会召开和《行动纲领》签署25周年。今年本应是我们就多边主义方面所取得的重要成就， 回顾过去并积极展望未来的一年 。然而， 2020年， 新冠肺炎疫情爆发。可以说， 2020年是迫切需要更多多边主义的一年， 是迫切需要国际合作的一年。2020年呼吁我们更加共享和团结， 帮助最弱势群体， 最终实现和平， 实现可持续发展， 提高韧性。
因此， 我非常担忧。因为我看到了一些破坏多边主义的行动， 对联合国和世卫组织的攻击， 退出联合国教科文组织等其他国际组织的行为。我相信， 要应对今天的挑战， 应对人类所面临的令人沮丧的问题， 我们所有人都需要更多的多边主义 ，而非更少。即便我们只以这场疫情为例， 病毒会攻击所有人， 无论贫富， 可能对贫穷人口的冲击更大。病毒是不分国界的， 也不分宗教， 政治秩序， 信仰或文明， 在这场斗争中我们是一体的。
当我看到有人决定退出这个多边体系时， 当我看到有人试图采取单边主义的方式来解决问题时， 我非常担心。因为这不是当今世界人类和世界所需要的，我们需要国际合作来实现可持续发展， 实现《巴黎气候协定》所设定的目标， 停止破坏生物多样性， 保卫我们的民族 ，并最终让援助惠及最弱势群体。这是我们今天所面临的主要任务。没有一个国家， 即便是世界上最强大的国家 ，可以独自取胜。
IB: You know, David, 2020 was supposed to be a very important year. It is the 75th anniversary of the United Nations. It is five years after the adoption of the landmark Sustainable Development Agenda 2030 by the United Nations. It is five years after the Paris Climate Agreement, 25 years after the landmark, again, historic conference in Beijing on women, peace, and development, and the Beijing Plan of Action. This was supposed to be a year of taking stock of and looking into the future with optimism, based on this extraordinary achievement of multilateralism. Now, 2020 is the year of the COVID. But 2020 also, I would say, is the year which cries out for more multilateralism. It cries out for international cooperation. It cries out for sharing, for solidarity, for reaching out to the most vulnerable, and at the end of the day, for peace and for more sustainable development and resilience.
So, I’m worried, I'm very worried looking at some attempts to undermine multilateralism, attacks on the United Nations, on the World Health Organization, retreating from major international organizations like UNESCO and some others. And I do believe that challenges today, the depressing problems that we have as humanity, all of us, need more multilateralism and not less. And even if you take only the pandemic, the virus hits everybody, the rich and the poor, maybe more the poor, but it does not know geographical borders. It does not recognize religions, political orders, beliefs, civilizations. We are all united in this struggle.
When I see this withdrawal from this multilateral system, when I see attempts to solve problems unilaterally, I'm worried because this is not what humanity and the world needs today. We need international cooperation to reach sustainability, to achieve the targets of the Paris Climate Agreement, to stop undermining biodiversity, and to protect our nation, and at the end of the day, to reach out to the most vulnerable in this world. So, this is the main task today. And not a single country, be the most powerful in the world, can achieve this unilaterally.
高大伟：非常感谢， 伊琳娜。你让我们想起过去75年的风雨历程， 以及我们如何在1945年共同创立联合国， 建立布雷顿森林体系等。事实上， 正是得益于多边主义， 我们才能自二战结束以来实现如此巨大的进步。在这种情况下， 伊琳娜 ，你如何看待联合国为实现发展与和平， 在发扬合作精神方面所扮演的角色。
DG: Thank you so much, Irina. You reminded us what has been happening for 75 years and how we built all together in 1945 the UN system, what happened at Bretton Woods and so on, and the fact that thanks to multilateralism, we have had such progress across the planet, by the way, since the end of the Second World War. So, in that context, Irina, how do you see the role of the UN to foster this collaborative spirit for development and peace?
伊琳娜·博科娃： 我仍然相信联合国是唯一一个可以推动国际合作的通用平台。即使它可能并不完美。联合国早期的一位秘书长达格·哈马舍尔德曾在几十年前说过， 联合国的成立并不是为了引领我们走向天堂， 而是为了把我们从地狱中解救出来。这是所有会员国应该努力实现的目标。可以说， 联合国获得了无数成就 ，不胜枚举 。但我也相信 ，世界需要政治领导人们在联合国框架下达成新的社会经济和政治协定 ，退出并不是解决问题的答案， 加强、 支持和改革才是正确的应对之策 。我相信《联合国宪章》仍具有现实意义， 联合国体系在全球范围内的标准设定仍具有现实意义。因此， 与不参与和攻击相反， 我认为一场坦诚的辩论， 探讨人类的未来， 探讨在此框架内亟待解决的挑战， 才是我们今天所需要的。
IB: Istill believe that the UN is the only universal platform for international cooperation. It may not be ideal. Dag Hammarskjöld, one of the first Secretary Generals of the United Nations, was saying decades ago that the United Nations was not created to take us to heaven, but to save us from hell, and this is where all the efforts of the member states of the United Nations should be aimed at. There are so many, I would say, achievements of the United Nations, and I cannot enumerate all of them. But I do believe that we need a new social, economic and political compact in the world by political leaders, based and within the framework of the United Nations. Withdrawal is not the answer. Strengthening, supporting, reforming is the true answer to what is happening. I do believe still that the Charter of the United Nations is relevant. The normative setting of the United Nations system globally is still very relevant. So, instead of sitting outside and attacking, I believe incite a true and honest debate about the future of humanity, about the pressing challenges within this framework is what is needed nowadays.
高大伟：非常感谢， 你提到了1945年。我们现在到了2020年 ，世界发生了天翻地覆的变化。2020年与1945年最大的不同之一在于中国的角色， 你非常了解中国 ，因为你来过中国很多很多次了。事实上， 你一直在见证一些人所说的中华复兴， 这是我的第三个也是最后一个问题， 伊琳娜。当你担任联合国教科文组织总干事时 你提出了一个我认为非常重要的概念， “新人文主义” ，它在我们对话的当下仍具有重要意义。因此我想问的是 ，你认为21世纪中华复兴将如何推动新人文主义， 为和平与发展作贡献？
DG: Thank you very much. You mentioned 1945. Of course, we are in 2020, and the world has changed tremendously. And one of the big differences between 2020 and 1945 is the role of China, a country that you know so well from within, because you came to China many, many, many times. In fact, you have been witnessing what some people call the Chinese renaissance. And that would be my third and last question, Irina. When you have been the Director-General of UNESCO, you have been developing what I consider to be an extremely important notion, the notion of new humanism, a notion actually which is still very relevant at the moment we have this conversation. Therefore, I would like to ask, how do you see the Chinese renaissance in the 21st century, contributing to this much needed new humanism for peace and development?
伊琳娜·博科娃： 谢谢你提到我的坚定信念 ，2009年我当选为联合国教科文组织的总干事， 当时金融危机刚刚发生 。我看到了这场危机给人民， 给教育体系 ，给健康和平等问题带来的严重后果。今天我更加坚信， 我们需要采取这种方式来应对全球面临的问题 ，中国在过去几十年中为人类发展这一理念做出了非凡的贡献。
我想提到一点， 根据联合国开发计划署在2009年发布的《人类发展报告》 发布日期，恰逢新中国成立70周年， 中国是唯一一个在过去四十年中从低人类发展水平跨越到高人类发展水平的国家。事实上， 自1990年以来， 中国已使7亿多贫困人口成功脱贫 。中国也为当前实现可持续发展目标提供了典范。
从另一方面看， 在我任职于联合国教科文组织的过程中， 引起我强烈共鸣的是中国对文化的重视 。可以说 ，中国将传统、历史与现代融为一体。我认为这正是当今世界所需要的， 中国相信保护文化遗产的重要性。目前中国列入《世界遗产名录》的世界遗产总数达到55处， 居世界第一， 同时也重视非物质文化遗产和传统文化的保护。这是一个很好的例子 。说明一个国家 ，一个民族觉醒时， 是通过文化 ，通过对多样性和文化深深的信念和尊重而实现觉醒的。这是最能体现人文主义的方式。我当然也会经常引用孔子关于人文主义的名言， 他主张 ，多样性最为珍贵 ，和谐能为人类带来价值 。我认为 ，这个强有力的信息再次坚定了我们的信念 ，人类生活在多元化的世界中， 我希望有一天可以实现和谐共处。
IB: IB: Thank you very much for mentioning my deep belief. When I was elected at UNESCO in 2009, it was immediately after the financial crisis. And I could see the terrible consequences of this crisis on people, on education systems, on health and on equalities. Today, even I'm a stronger believer in the need for this type of approach toward solving the problems in the world. And what China has been contributing in the last decades to this notion of human development is extraordinary.
Let me just mention that China is the only country in the world, according to the last Human Development Report of the United Nations system, published coincided with the 70th anniversary of the establishment of the People's Republic of China, that China is the only country that in the span just of 40 years, reached an index of high human development index, starting from a very low human development index. In fact, China lifted out of poverty more than 700 million people since 1990. And today, it gives an example also of achieving the Sustainable Development Goals.
But the other aspect, and of course, it resonates very deeply with me from my experience of UNESCO, is also Chinese belief in culture. This Chinese, I would say, reconciliation of heritage, of history with modernity. And I think this is what the world needs today. Believing in protection of heritage, China nowadays has the most heritage sites inscribed on the World Heritage List, is number one, 55 heritage sites, protecting also the intangible heritage, the tradition. It's a wonderful example that when a country, when a people awakens up, it is through culture, it is through this deep, I would say, belief and respect for diversity and for culture. And this is the most humanistic, I would say, approach. I, of course, have often quoted many of Confucius ideas about humanism. He said that diversity is most precious and that harmony also is what brings value to human beings. I think this is a very strong message nowadays in strengthening, once again, our belief that we are one single humanity living in diversity, and I hope one day in harmony.
高大伟：非常感谢， 你所提到的内容非常重要， 伊琳娜。当然 ，中国是一个政治实体， 也是一个巨大的经济体 。但重要的是要记住中国还是一个古老而又鲜活的文明。因此， 中国在推动你提出的新人文主义主张方面扮演了至关重要的角色 。你和我， 我们都相信进步。事实上， 世界已经取得了很多很多进步。你提到了贫困， 女性地位， 环境问题。当然， 这个世界并不完美， 我们需要继续进步。在我看来， 如果要继续进步， 我们不仅需要创新精神， 还需要合作精神。在这一背景下， 你的工作极为关键， 不可或缺。可以说， 联合国教科文组织的工作亦是如此 。因此， 伊琳娜， 非常感谢你和我们对话， 也感谢你能与许多其他领导人一道， 为建立一个更具协作性和合作性的世界所付出的努力， 谢谢。
DG: Thank you very much. This is so important what you just said, Irina. That is, of course, China is a political entity, of course, it's a massive economy, but it is very important to remember that it is both an ancient and living civilization. And as such, it has a very important role to play to foster the new humanism you have tried to defend and that you are defending every day. I think, you and I, we believe in progress. Actually, the world has been progressing a lot, a lot. You spoke about poverty. You spoke about the status of women. You spoke about the environment. Of course, this is not perfect, and we need to go on to progress. It seems to me that if one wants to continue the progress, we would need also to foster not only the spirit of innovation, but also the spirit of collaboration. And in that context, your work is absolutely key, indispensable, I would say, as the work of UNESCO. So, thank you very much for your time, Irina, and to push with so many also other leaders for a world, a more collaborative, cooperative world. Thank you.
IB: Thank you very much, David.